German has uvular fricatives!

[pne]

Hm, up till now I thought that German /x/ was [x]... but after listening to this page, I'm convinced that it's actually [X] (and that my /r/ is [R], not [G]).

(Also, my attempts at rhotic trills seem to be closer to an [R\] (uvular trill) than to an [r] (alveolar trill). Heh. My trills suck, and I blame my frenulum.)

Comments

[elgrande.livejournal.com]

I think I've read that it depends on the preceding vowel whether it's [x] or [X].

[C] vs [x]

[pne.livejournal.com]

For me, it's [C] ~ [X] depending on the vowel, not [x] ~ [X].

Re: [C] vs [x]

[elgrande.livejournal.com]

Sure, that's pretty obvious.

But I read that "Buch" and "ach" have different consonants, I think. I can't hear a difference between the two sounds though, but then again I can't hear the difference between [x] and [X] otherwise either, do I don't know if it's true.

Re: [C] vs [x]

[marikochan.livejournal.com]

I've only just started studying German, so it might be that I'm pronouncing things incorrectly, but I definitely hear (phonetically) different consonants in "Bücher" and "acht." Not as sure about "Buch."

Re: [C] vs [x]

[pne.livejournal.com]

I definitely hear (phonetically) different consonants in "Bücher" and "acht."

*nods* the first has the "ich-Laut" ([C]) and the second has the "ach-Laut" ([X]).

Briefly speaking, /x/ is [C] after front vowels such as /y/ and [X] after back vowels such as /a/.

Not as sure about "Buch."

It has the sound of /x/ after back vowels. However, it's true that I do pronounce it slightly more forward than the sound in "acht".

Incidentally, I also have [C] in my English, I think -- for me, "huge" /hju:dZ/ is roughly [Cu:dZ].

Re: [C] vs [x]

[marikochan.livejournal.com]

The first consonant in my "huge" is farther forward -- more like the Japanese ひ.

Buch vs ach

[pne.livejournal.com]

But I read that "Buch" and "ach" have different consonants, I think.

Hmm... *tries it out*

You may be right. I'm not sure the consonant in "Buch" is far enough forward to be [x], but it feels more forward to me than the sound in "ach", which seems a lot more uvular to me.

[darth-spacey.livejournal.com]

I think it varies dialectically. AIUI, for instance, the Yiddish accent has /x/ for both the ich-laut and the ach-laut. Some have /x/ and some /X/ for the ach-laut. I think thought, that all the dialects that separate ich-laut from ach-laut have /C/ for the ich-laut. Having said that, ISTR my German teacher in school had something more like /S/ or maybe /C_+/.

[S] vs [C]

[pne.livejournal.com]

Having said that, ISTR my German teacher in school had something more like /S/ or maybe /C_+/.

*nods* There are even some areas which merge [S] and [C] into [S] (for them, "Kirche" and "Kirsche" sound the same); they have to learn which word is spelled which way.

These people tend to hypercorrect when they attempt to speak standard German and say things such as "fricher Fich" for "frischer Fisch".

Re: [S] vs [C]

[tungol.livejournal.com]

My sister did a 3-month exchange to Worms in her second-last year of high school, and apparently they merge [S] and [C] there. She generally pronounces the same, though she can hear and produce the difference.

[meeps-hitchie.livejournal.com]

LOL! Try Swissgerman! :)

Swiss German

[pne.livejournal.com]

Speaking of which - have you heard of the Chochichästli-Orakel (http://dialects.from.ch/)? It attempts to guess which part of Switzerland you are from, based on your pronunciation of a number of words.

How accurate is it for you?

[timwi.livejournal.com]

I had this same thought a while back. [x] and [γ] are in the same column ("velar") in the IPA table as [k] and [g]; I suppose this means that [x] and [k] are supposed to be pronounced at approximately the same place in the mouth. Similarly, [χ] is in the same column as [q]; I always pronounced [q] in the same place as my normal "ch". This led me to believe that German "ach" is actually [aχ] and not [ax].

I can also see the difference in the "ch" sound between "ach" and "Buch"; however, I wouldn't consider that difference to be significant enough. I think they're still both [χ]. My [x] (i.e. my attempt at fricativising the [q]) is way further in front than Buch.

And yes, I always knew the German R is [R]. :-) How did you get [G]? That's a plosive.

[elgrande.livejournal.com]

[G] in ASCII IPA is [γ] in normal IPA.

[elgrande.livejournal.com]

Can you pronounce alveolar flap sounds? Once I got the hang of that, I didn't have much of a problem with the trill either, even though in combination with some other consonants I can't pronounce them.

Hmm, I actually wanted to try to explain how to make this sound, but I guess I can't. :/