To be, or not to be, a Catholic in Germany

[pne]

Something that’s been going through the news recently is the status of members of the Catholic church who do not pay church tax.

For historical reasons, certain religious communities in Germany (including the Roman Catholic Church) can have contributions collected from workers’ salaries automatically, at a fixed percentage of their income tax (IIRC); these monies are collected by the government and passed on to the religious community that the person is affiliated with. (Which is why your religion is part of the tax forms, though they only care whether it’s one of the dozen-odd religions that church tax is collected for, or “other or none”.)

A fair number of people are unhappy with paying church tax and have left their church in order not to be obligated to pay it. (Sometimes waiting until they have got married in a church ceremony.)

Now the news is that the Catholic Church in Germany is considering barring non-church-tax-paying people from receiving the benefits of church membership, such as a religious burial.

Now while I think that wanting to enjoy the benefits of association with a group without paying the associated dues (if the group regularly charges such does from its members) to be hypocritical, I’m a bit confused by the theological background of the new turn of events.

From what I had understood, the Catholic Church position was that once you are baptised, you’re a member, and it’s nearly impossible to leave the church voluntarily. For example, if you went off and converted to Islam, you’d still be a Catholic in their eyes (though probably a heretical one).

By those lines, what people are doing is not leaving the church (which is nearly impossible) but changing their declared religious affiliation with the government. So it’s between them and the government and doesn’t negate their baptism.

So I’m curious where they got the understanding from that suddenly it’s possible to say that somebody now isn’t a Catholic.

Or maybe I’m misunderstanding and the official line is that they are still, indeed, Catholics, but that not all Catholics enjoy the same rights (for example, to a religious burial), so that these non-church-tax-paying people fall into a second-class group that already existed previously.

Or something?

Comments

[pauamma]

Isn't that de facto excommunication?

[yvi]

What I find especially interesting is that after all the Catholic church does not expect people in other countries to pay money. Around the world, people are enjoying those benefits without any payment (yes, there is tithing, but they won't deny you a religious wedding ceremony if you don't tithe).

From what I had understood, the Catholic Church position was that once you are baptised, you’re a member, and it’s nearly impossible to leave the church voluntarily.

It is. There are certain groups helping people who want to formally leave the church and it's not easy (actually, almost impossible, however, they sometimes do agree to delete your records and that's the best you can get).

I wouldn't put it on the same level as excommunication, because that requires a formal process (hence the first part about it being difficult to leave the church). There is excomunication that does not require a review and instead occurs the moment you do something with the penalty of instant excommunication, but that's not what's happening here. Latae sententiae is reserved for crimes against the church, such as desecrating the eucharist, hitting the Pope or having/performing an abortion.

[yvi]

Or maybe I’m misunderstanding and the official line is that they are still, indeed, Catholics, but that not all Catholics enjoy the same rights (for example, to a religious burial), so that these non-church-tax-paying people fall into a second-class group that already existed previously.

Oh, I can sort of half answer this - excommunicated Catholics are actually still Catholics. You really, really can't leave the Catholic church. However, excommunicated Catholics are denied the sacraments.

So I suppose that if you stop paying the tax, you are considered on one level with excommunicated Catholics, but you are not actually excommunicated - that would require a formal excommunication process. But I am mostly guessing here.

[xaea]

WOW.

without getting too judgmental, this makes me really mad. i'm still adjusting to the fact that "catholic" does not actually equal "christian"....it is definitely an animal all its own.

[pne]

It does sound a bit like it, doesn’t it.

[pne]

That would make sense given what (little) I know about the church already. Perhaps that is it.

[pne]

What I find especially interesting is that after all the Catholic church does not expect people in other countries to pay money. Around the world, people are enjoying those benefits without any payment (yes, there is tithing, but they won't deny you a religious wedding ceremony if you don't tithe).

Good point.

Also, at first I thought this was some half-cooked idea of the Deutsche Bischofskonferenz or something, but one of the news reports implied that the Pope had agreed with the scheme, which surprised me: that makes it less of a “oh, it’s just some crazy German bishops” thing and more of a “this is an official Catholic thing” thing, which really surprises me.

Perhaps that sort of thing could only happen with a German Pope? Or maybe I misunderstood and Benedict didn’t actually give his nihil obstat and imprimatur to the scheme.

What’s a Christian?

[pne]

I’m not sure I would go there.

Christians come in all shapes and sizes, some with better ideas, some with worse ideas (often in the same group at different times, or different parts of the group at the same time).

Lots of people have lots of different definitions for “Christian”; unfortunately, for some, this seems to be roughly, “someone who believes (nearly) exactly what I do”, which I find problematic.

Hearing people deny Catholics the label “Christian” gets my hair up a little—just like with Latter-day Saints/Mormons or Jehovah’s Witnesses.

Whether they are “the true church of Christ” (if there is such a thing) is one thing, but when considering which groups are Christian, I tend to go with the group’s self-identification.

On the other hand, your definition of “Christian” may well vary from mine, in which case I think we’ll have to agree to disagree.

(I may be oversimplifying or overgeneralising, but I have the impression that for a lot of Americans, “Christian” means roughly “mainstream Trinitarian Protestant”, excluding both Catholics and non-Trinitarians such as Latter-day Saints.)

Re: What’s a Christian?

[xaea]

all of what you said is why a lot of "Bible-believing God-worshipers" are using the label "Christ-follower" instead of "christian"—as you demonstrated, the term is too broad nowadays.

there are Christ-following catholics, protestants, etc. but not everyone who calls themselves christian is a Christ-follower.

i do not mean to bash catholics, at all, and i regret that my words came out sounding that way. what i was trying to communicate is that the Bible does not teach (or even condone) a "church tax". so the catholic church revoking rights, etc. upsets me.

Re: What’s a Christian?

[pne]

not everyone who calls themselves christian is a Christ-follower.

That’s certainly something we can agree on. (And I’m pretty sure that’s true regardless of the denomination, grouping, name, or whatever.)

Re: What’s a Christian?

[yvi]

Hearing people deny Catholics the label “Christian” gets my hair up a little—just like with Latter-day Saints/Mormons or Jehovah’s Witnesses.

Yeah, same here (and well, I am as Atheist as they come). Roman-Catholicism is one of the very "basic" Christian denominations. I never understood the sentiment of differentiating between Catholic and Christian. I was raised Protestant (United German church thingy) and educated at a catholic school and the differences aren't that big.

[yvi]

I had the pleasure of spending much of my first 19 years in Catholic education (first Kindergarten and then the last 4 years of school) and it's sometimes a bit weird. I am pretty sure there will be more explanations as to non-tax-paying Catholics soon.