Subjunctives

[pne]

Recently on lojban-list, people were talking about subjunctives. One person brought up Spanish and how the subjunctive is used there; the example he gave is:

Also, consider the Spanish sentence "Busco una mujer que sea guapa". It means "I'm looking for a woman who is beautiful", but because the subjunctive "sea" is used rather than the indicative "es", it indicates that there is not a specific woman. "Busco una mujer que es guapa" would be a (rather wordy) way of saying that there is a woman I am looking for and that she is beautiful. (Notice how elegantly Spanish handles the old Lojban argument about "Any"!) This is a use of the subjunctive for which there is no parallel in English. We have to guess from context whether "I'm looking for a woman who is beautiful" means that there is a specific woman I seek or not.

That reminded me immediately of this bit from Mark Rosenfelder's grammar of Cadhinor and Cuêzi ("PreCadh.doc"):

In some cases the definiteness of the referent is conveyed by the choice of definite or remote aspect:

Urestu kae coronda emetes [REMOTE] telnai.
I'm looking for a man who speaks Kurundasti (one may not exist).

Urestu kae coronda emes [DEFINITE] telnai.
I'm looking for the (known) man who speaks Kurundasti.

The Native Grammar of Cadhinor that's available on the web has a similar, but not so striking, example:

Various are the uses of the remote mood, including: […] Indefinite references: ELORION PRADE TELNEMET. The king is looking for an honest man.

I presume that Spanish is where he got part of the inspiration for that from.

When I thought about it some more, I'm pretty sure that Greek also conveys the distinction in the same manner:

Ψάχνω μια γυναίκα που να είναι όμορφη
I'm looking for a woman who is beautiful (any woman; not a specific one)

Ψάχνω μια γυναίκα που είναι όμορφη
I'm looking for a woman who is beautiful (and I have a particular woman in mind)

The difference is the να, which is used in subjunctive constructions (which are otherwise indistinguishable in Modern Greek spelling, though slightly older spelling reflects the difference [which is not reflected in pronunciation], e.g. έχει - να έχη, έχομε - να έχωμε).

On the other hand, German, which still has a subjunctive (or does it? I think the Konjunktiv is what is called subjunctive in English, but I could be wrong), probably wouldn't use it like that. I'd always say "Ich suche eine Frau, die hübsch ist" either way, regardless of whether I had a specific woman in mind or not. "Ich suche eine Frau, die hübsch sei" sounds weird; if it is grammatical and has meaning at all, I'd interpret it not as "I'm looking for a woman who is beautiful (any woman)" but rather as "I'm looking for a specific woman who, it is claimed, is beautiful"; that is, the conjunctive is used to express doubt as to whether the attribute applies to her rather than as to whether such a specific woman exists. (The same form used in reported speech: "Er sagte, dass sie hübsch sei", "He said that she is beautiful".)

What about French? Is a distinction made between "Je recherche une femme qui est belle" and "Je recherche une femme qui soit belle"? Are both correct, or only one (which one?)? If both: is the distinction the same as in Spanish and Greek?

Comments

[nik-w.livejournal.com]

Did you mean to put this in your journal or in linguaphiles?

[pne.livejournal.com]

I considered putting it in linguaphiles but it's really more of a random thought, especially since I refer to Mark Rosenfelder's conlangs.

But perhaps I'll cross-post it; it might be interesting to more people than I initially thought.

[nik-w.livejournal.com]

I thought it was misplaced as it (to me) seemed too geeky to make much sense to the average reader, but then it's your journal to post what you please!:D

[pne.livejournal.com]

Yes :)

There's a journal entry floating around the back of my head for quite a while that I'll get around to posting one of these days, to do with posting for an audience or not.

[nik-w.livejournal.com]

BTW, your example of "I'm looking for a woman who is beautiful" being ambiguous is partially solved around these parts. It may not be the best formed English in the world, but to refer to a specific person, we'd say "I'm looking for this woman who is beautiful" - not pretty, and not particularly good (as there's no definition for "this"), but we use it just the same!:p

this

[pne.livejournal.com]

Ah! Good point. Yes, I've heard such usage, too. (And similar in "OK, there was this guy, right? And he...".)

"This" being used to indicate you're thinking of a (woman|guy|...) in particular.

Re: this

[nik-w.livejournal.com]

it's as though you had a picture of them (which, I guess you do, just in your mind)!

[elgrande.livejournal.com]

Not really: Imagine you lose your boyfriend somewhere, you might ask people stuff like: "I'm looking for a man who is 2 meters tall and who has brown hair. Have you seen him?" Although you're having a specific person in mind, you say "a man", not "this man".

[nik-w.livejournal.com]

Yes, actually. Your example is the "proper" way of saying it, but around here (North West England), we would actually say "I'm looking for this guy" to make it clear we are looking for someone specific. You'd never catch anyone from other parts of the country saying it, though.

[pne.livejournal.com]

Ooh, Nik has a boyfriend :)

[nik-w.livejournal.com]

Haha - it's the sort of thing I get from random people when using my Reese icon!:p

[pthalo]

americans say it too. or at least in the part(s) i lived in.

So, I'm looking for this guy who's about 6 feet tall, wear's glasses and has a beard.

[nik-w.livejournal.com]

Damn Americans - always pinching our things and calling it their own!:p That's interesting, actually - I'd never noticed anyone else say it:)

[marikochan.livejournal.com]

Very interesting! Unfortunately, I'm not far enough along in French to even have learned subjunctive, let alone to be able to understand the nuances of it.

Wouldn't the same ambiguous situation apply whether you said "I'm looking for a woman who is beautiful" or "I'm looking for a beautiful woman"? At first I thought the distinction might be made between those two sentences, but on further thought they could both be interpreted either way.

[pne.livejournal.com]

I think that both sentences could each mean either thing, too.

(Incidentally, Ellen: are you doing NaNoWriMo again this year?)

[marikochan.livejournal.com]

Of course! I was planning on making a general announcement/recruitment post tomorrow since that's when newbies can sign up. :)

[angelsk.livejournal.com]

"Je recherche une femme qui est belle" is correct. Soit is not correct here.

[fweebles.livejournal.com]

It's correct in the sense of "I'm looking for a woman that (people say) is beautiful. Same as in German. :)

[pne.livejournal.com]

Hm, http://www.livejournal.com/community/linguaphiles/533137.html?thread=6979473 says that it is permissible in the "she may or may not exist" sense.

[pthalo]

Egy szép nőt keresek. (I am looking for a beautiful woman)
Egy szép nőt keresem. (I am looking for a beautiful woman and I have a specific one in mind.)

I think this is the same thing anyway? In hungarian we have the subjective and objective (alanyi and tárgyás) conjugation of verbs.

Olvasok egy levelet (I am reading a letter)
Olvasom a levelet (I am reading the letter [that arrived yesterday]).

anyway it's a bit different, but i think it would apply in this case you're talking about as well.

i am looking for a certain someone (The beautiful woman named Alice) keresem. i am looking for any someone that fits my criteria (any woman, so long as she's beautiful) keresek.