If English was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me!

[pne]

I'm preparing a talk for tomorrow in church, and had picked the topic of life after death.

While reading Talmage's Jesus the Christ, I saw a reference to a scripture which, he says, looks forward to the time when Jesus preached the Gospel among the spirits of the deceased between his crucifixion and his resurrection:

And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

—Isaiah 24:21, 22, King James Version

However, when I checked my German Einheitsübersetzung, which we commonly use in Church here, it turned out not to support this interpretation very well, since it had …und nach einer langen Zeit wird er sie strafen ("and after a long time he will punish them").

That made me wonder whether the applicability of the English was an artefact of the word choice, since "visit" is sometimes used in connection with punishment (e.g. "visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation"), so I had a look in a couple of other translations.

The New World Translation would also support the interpretation "Jesus will visit the spirits of the wicked and teach them" with its phrasing and after an abundance of days they will be given attention, while the German Luther translation uses und nach langer Zeit wieder heimgesucht werden ("heimsuchen" is roughly "afflict, visit [with punishment]"). The World English Bible, on the other hand, has and after many days shall they be visited, as the KJV does.

I tried going to the Septuagint, but am not sure what to make of δια πολλών γενεών επισκοπή έσται αυτών, which seems to mean something along the lines of "throughout many generations, they shall be watched over", i.e. a fairly different meaning than the English and German Bibles I've consulted. I wonder what the Hebrew says.

I've had this problem before, when someone has brought up a Bible verse to prove a point, and the equivalent in another translation doesn't support that, and it's sometimes hard to know whether the point-prover's Bible is badly translated in that area, or mine, or whether both are correct, or what. Also interesting when someone, to prove a point, uses a different Bible translation than for the remainder of their talk.

So, have to see. I shall probably leave out that one, then.

Comments

Thanks

[marsbee28.livejournal.com]

Thanks for helping me with the question. Now I can write my livejournal for before I leave to go to Christian camp tomorrow.

[pleiades829.livejournal.com]

Sorrym, bud - the Hebrew doesn't make anything better. The word means both "to visit" and "to punish," depending on the context...so they are both right. I would personally pick the visit one, but here's the whole BDB definition for you to read and make your own decision. (The goofy characters are Hebrew that didn't copy well.)

Hope that helps!

Word: PQD

vb. attend to, visit, muster, appoint — Qal A. 1. a. pay attention to, observe (with care, practical interest), of 'I c. acc. pers. + rei, c. acc. pers.; c. acc. rei. b. attend to, in act, see to, c. acc. pers.; acc. of sheep (in fig.). c. seek (with interest, desire), seek 'I; in bad sense, look about for. Hence, d. seek in vain, need, miss, lack (cf. Niph.,), c. acc. pers. 2. specif. visit, c. acc., for different purposes: with (A) a present; esp. of 'I, visit, graciously; visit to search, test, acc. pers., abs.; to punish; acc. pers. om., c. L¢R rei (of sin) (here + A pers.); acc rei; abs., of 'I's anger. 3. c. L¢R pers., visit upon, 'I subj., + acc. rei (of sin); acc. rei om., = punish; + J rei; + cl. of sin; c. L£@ pers., L£@ + L¢R; indef. subj. c. L¢R of vineyard = injure. 4. pass in review, muster (nearly = number), c. acc.; acc. om.; obj. D£E¡P; esp. pt. pass., persons or things mustered (numbered). B. appoint: 1. c. acc. pers. + M¡x¦@, + L¢R pers. over whom, + L£@ (for L¢R); c. acc. pers. alone; pt. pass. pl. appointed ones, officers, of (fighting) host. 2. c. acc. rei, appoint, assign, + L¢R pers. to whom; c. acc. rei; lay upon (L¢R pers.) as a charge; + inf.; = deposite, c. acc. rei + A loc. Niph. 1. be (sought, i.e. needed) missed, lacking; of seat, palce (i.e. be empty). 2. be visited (graciously). 3. be visited upon, L¢R pers. 4. be appointed. Pi. (intens.) muster a host (of 'I). Pu. be passed in review; be caused to miss, deprived of, c. acc. rei. Hithp. be mustered. Hothp. Hiph. 1. c. acc. pers., set (over), make overseer; + L¢R, fig. acc. of punishment; + A and LR; + L; + X£[©@ M¡[. 2. c. acc. rei (implic.), a. commit, entrust (cf. O]C¡u¦s); c. acc. I¦GhX + _¥C¡I¥d. b. deposit, c. acc. rei + A loc., + L loc.; acc. pers. (Jer. as prisoner) + A loc. Hoph. 1. be visited in punishment. 2. be deposited. 3. be made overseer, c. ZI¤d; c. L¢R

PQD

[pne.livejournal.com]

Hmm... tricky.

Thanks, Beth.

(Though I admit I can't make much sense of the definition you gave, but I'll take your word for it - and I do see both "visit" and "punish" in it.)

[liv]

Just to add to pleiades829's comment above: the Hebrew root פקד (p-k-d) means to set in order, to sort out, that kind of thing. So it can have a theological secondary meaning of punish because where there is sin, sorting things out might mean seeing that justice is done and the sinners are appropriately punished.

It is the same word that is used in visiting the iniquity, but that's a sense of visit which isn't really used outside that Biblical context; it certainly doesn't mean pay a social call! The other Biblical context I can think of where you get a related word is Exodus 38:21, where KJV gives it as sum and my Fox as accountings. In this context it introduces an inventory of all the stuff in the Tabernacle. So again, it's a setting things in order kind of context.

In modern Hebrew, just as a side-note, פקיד (fakid) is a bureaucrat, an official, or a clerk.

The Septuagint seems to be using the root in the sense of watch closely, pay attention to detail. Which has slightly less negative connotations, but in context it might well mean that people will be watched so closely that every little sin will be noted and accounted for.

Does that help any?

p-q-d

[pne.livejournal.com]

Yes, thank you!

Perhaps the Jehovah's Witnesses' New World Translation is pretty close then.