Choices, choices...

[pne]

On the topic of abortions I recently read a comment by cairnsy in a journal entry by isabeau, with a line of thinking I hadn't seen before but which I found interesting.

I think it's commonly accepted that part of growing up and becoming an adult is learning to accept that choices come with consequences (e.g. "you broke it, you fix it or pay for it"), and this comment seemed, to me, to be based on this, though it wasn't explicitly stated:

I've never [bought] into the whole 'a woman should be able to do what she wants with her body' line of thinking, mainly because in most cases, she was doing exactly what she wanted with her body when she chose to have unprotected sex. The male partner is naturally just as responsible, but to me, arguing that a woman should have a control over her body and yet not have to deal with the consequences of how she uses that body, is just not my cup of tea.

(Ignoring for the time being that some conceptions occur despite precautions; I've heard them called "Tropi-Kinder" in German, a play on words with the Tropi- root meaning "tropical" and an abbreviation of trotz Pille "despite the pill".)

Comments

[karen2205]

<devil's advocate>

Surely, by having to choose between abortion, adoption & becoming a parent unexpectedly, she does have to face up to the consequences of unprotected sex? None of those choices are particularly palatable.

There's a better argument for saying that people ought not to be having sex at all if they can't cope with the possibility they might face that set of choices since contraceptives sometimes fail.

[kutsuwamushi.livejournal.com]

Pregnancy isn't a broken window -- the argument for "taking responsibility" only makes sense if you believe that carrying the fetus to term is somehow the right thing to do, and many people don't.

If you believe it's morally neutral (or even morally irresponsible to give birth to a child with an uncertain future), then the only reason to force a woman to carry the fetus to term is to punish her. That's not only childish, but harmful -- both to the mother and the child. Education, not punishment, is what we need.

[pne.livejournal.com]

the argument for "taking responsibility" only makes sense if you believe that carrying the fetus to term is somehow the right thing to do

Yes, I suppose that is an underlying assumption.

[ladyortyger.livejournal.com]

I agree, but the tiny, inconsequential number of pregnancies that occur despite reliable, properly used birth control methods, is far far far far less than the vast number that could be prevented with proper education and help.

So I think focusing on that small number, and proposing the consequences argument, is ridiculous when we could be spending that time telling young people what really DOES happen when you choose to be sexually active, instead of pushing an idiotic abstinence-only education upon them, with the argument that 'If you teach kids about sex, and give out condoms, they'll have more sex.'.

*sigh* /gripe about the USA


Karen2205 said it pretty well - "There's a better argument for saying that people ought not to be having sex at all if they can't cope with the possibility they might face that set of choices since contraceptives sometimes fail."

Yeah. Exactly.. yet, with the reliability of most bc methods (if used properly) being very very close to 100%, why not use them? You certainly can't tell adults to be abstinent because abstinence is the only foolproof method of avoiding pregnancies. Most people will just NOT accept that.

[ladyortyger.livejournal.com]

I had a huuuuge argument over the morality of abortion a few days ago and I'm STILL riled up about it. *sigh*

education = good

[pne.livejournal.com]

Buh? Both ladybirdsleeps and you seem to infer from my entry that I'm against educating (young) people about sex in general and contraception in particular, when I didn't touch on that subject at all.

In fact, I kind of assumed education, since otherwise, a choice to have unprotected sex isn't the same thing as when you know what happens when you have sex (= babies, potentially, even if the woman is on top, or you took one BCP that morning, or you jump up and down after sex, or whatever other uninformed rumour people occasionally believe) and that it is possible to prevent conception fairly reliably (as you said, not 100%, but pretty close).

My person morals object to sex outside marriage, but I'd say that if you do not intend to have children, then if you do have sex, take proper precautions. And if you don't, it should be because of a conscious choice "I will not use contraception tonight and will take into account that this could result in my becoming pregnant", not out of laziness or convenience or ignorance.

Re: education = good

[asciident]

I think, without actually knowing what was meant, that they both are ranting more about the US's (Bush Administration's -- but not just his, really) policy of teaching "abstinence only", on the idea that "if you teach them about how to have protected sex, and provide supplies with which they can practice it, it'll just lead to more sex!"

I don't think it was about whether or not you think there should be better sex education. :)

[catamorphism.livejournal.com]

You could just as easily argue that we should institute the death penalty for parking tickets. After all, if you don't want to die, you should know to put enough money in the parking meter. And if you really want to be careful, you can just avoid driving completely!

[pne.livejournal.com]

I'm afraid I fail to see the analogy.

If there were a death penalty for parking tickets, then yes, it would make sense to put enough money into the parking meter (or not to drive, so you wouldn't have to park).

But I'm not getting why you think one should be instituted, or what you are comparing this to.

[catamorphism.livejournal.com]

Your reasoning seems to be that if you have sex, you should have to deal with the potential of becoming pregnant and carrying a child to term, because such are the consequences of sex. "People should face the consequences of their actions" sounds nice, but the question is what consequences? People should be responsible for parking illegally, but the death penalty seems like a bit of an excessive punishment. Likewise, being forced to carry a child to term seems like somewhat of an excessive punishment for the "crime" of having sex.

[pne.livejournal.com]

We may have to agree to disagree on this.