Shibboleths

[pne]

[Poll #383269]

Comments

[ladyortyger.livejournal.com]

.. Okay, I've heard the word shibboleth before but never seen anyone actually use it. ;)

How come you didn't put any hard ones like exaggerate or necessitate or necessary or embarass... ones I have trouble spelling :P

[pne.livejournal.com]

I couldn't come up with any at the spur of the moment. Maybe I should have collected examples for longer :)

This was mostly driven by my irritation at 'discrete(ly)' used instead of 'discreet(ly)'.

[ladyortyger.livejournal.com]

Ah! My personal pet peeve is "Here here" instead of "Hear Hear"....

I get all angry just thinking about it! :)

You should go back to... Saturday? Sunday? in shadesong's journal and read her entry about spelling/grammar pet peeves, the comments are very varied and lots of examples.

[pne.livejournal.com]

Ah, found it (http://www.livejournal.com/users/shadesong/2202683.html?nc=131). Will have to read when I have more time. Thanks!

[bride.livejournal.com]

Wait, that wasn't me, was it? It _is_ "Discrete Mathematics"... now you have me all paranoid. >KO

[pne.livejournal.com]

Nope. Just random people who say things such as "discretely alert him to the booger on his sleeve" or the like. *shudders*

[bride.livejournal.com]

Ah, *tsk*. Random people are annoying like that =D

[pleiades829.livejournal.com]

I fess up to my ignorance - What, exactly, is the difference between i.e. and e.g.?

And a story regarding effect/affect - back in the day, my freshman English teacher asked me to explain the difference between them, and my giving all four definitions was what catapulted me into the advanced English class. Woo-hoo (no more lame worksheets)! :)

[ladyortyger.livejournal.com]

I.E. is when you are explaining the meaning of a word or giving a synonym, I believe, and E.G. is giving an example... at least that's what I think. I may be wrong. :)

[pne.livejournal.com]

*nods*

I usually read i.e. as "that is" (well, when I'm not saying "eye ee") and e.g. as "for example".

[denial-land.livejournal.com]

"exemplo gratio", that's what I heard.

[elgrande.livejournal.com]

I learnt "exempli gratia", which seems to make more sense. Your version has no google hits whatsoever.

(One of my teachers said it standed for "example given" but that seems a bit VERY unlikely to me.)

[denial-land.livejournal.com]

sounds reasonable... did I meantion I hate Latin? ;)

[cadenzamuse.livejournal.com]

"i.e." being Latin for "id est" which is "that is."

And the other "daughter" comment is correct-ish--I don't remember the exact Latin but its "exempla gratis," I think...which is basically what it looks like, an example "gratis." I read it as Latin initials for "for example." ...err, like you said. :)

[sparkofcreation.livejournal.com]

Today I wrote an essay on Krèyol, i.e. Haitian Creole French. (synonyms)
Today I wrote an essay on Romance languages, e.g. French. (one example of many)

[bride.livejournal.com]

I.E. stands for "Internet Explorer" and should be pronounced "AAAIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!".

*straight face* =|

[denial-land.livejournal.com]

..and which should not be used under any circomstances, and replaced with f.f.

(hee.)

[marikochan.livejournal.com]

I admit to a bit of uncertainty on my "me and [blank]" and "I and [blank]" answers since my understanding is that they're not preferred but that they are (grammatically) correct. I think few people use the 1st person pronoun nominative pronoun first, so arguably it's becoming less acceptable.

[bride.livejournal.com]

Just to be More-Pedantic-Than-Thou, Q3 should be:

     Mary and I went to the cinema yesterday.

You're missing a period at the end of the sentence. =)

[pne.livejournal.com]

Punctuation is overrated :)

I suppose that, strictly speaking, you're right.

[pne.livejournal.com]

By the way, that's a 'full stop', not a 'period' :)

[bride.livejournal.com]

Depends which grammar texts you're consulting =D But yes, it is a "full stop".

[sedesdraconis.livejournal.com]

Huh, suprised no one at all said "Mary and me went...", which I regard as much more correct than the converse, "... with John and I."

The only reason I wouldn't see "Mary and me" is disimilation: the two 'm's sound bad. Otherwise I'm fine with it, along with many other native speakers, and that's all that counts. So there.

Hypercorrectionism bugs me, though.

The rest is all writing, not language, so its a symbolic notation code, not a social phenomenon, and it's conventions can be more strongly argued as correct.

[sedesdraconis.livejournal.com]

Oh, and like the title :) The sort of obscure-semi-random-appropriate my brain often suggests for titles.

[jordik.livejournal.com]

The "Mary and I/I and Mary" and also the "John and me/me and John" variants, although I always use the first of the pair, are of course equivalent. I do not know of any linguistic rule that says the other must come first.

Interesting test, and the first use of shibboleth outside the Bible and Tolkien I ever saw.

[pne.livejournal.com]

are of course equivalent.

Grammatically, yes.

I do not know of any linguistic rule that says the other must come first.

It's a stylistic thing, about not mentioning oneself first. As such, it's extra-grammatical, I suppose, and it's debatable whether the other variant is "incorrect" or not.

the first use of shibboleth outside the Bible and Tolkien I ever saw.

Where and how did Tolkien use it?

[jordik.livejournal.com]

Tolkien used Shibboleth in the title of one his remarkable linguistic essays: "The Shibboleth of Fëanor", a long discussion about how the Ñoldor began pronounching 'th' as 's', and how this was adopted by the Ñoldor opposed to Fëanor but not by the Fëanorians.

This began as an explanation of the "wrong" spelling used in Galadriel's lament

[jordik.livejournal.com]

Published in ''The Peoples of Middle-earth'' (The History of Middle-earth Vol. 12), text XI: ''The Shibboleth of Fëanor'' by the way.