Linguistic meta humour

[pne]

"This sentence no verb"

"When one this sentence into the German to translate wanted, would one the fact exploit, that the word order and the punctuation already with the German conventions agree?"

Comments

[uon.livejournal.com]

This sentence has cabbage six words.

[pne.livejournal.com]

This gubblick contains many nonsklarkish English flutzpahs, but the overall pluggandisp can be glorked from context.

[elgrande.livejournal.com]

The second sentence is great. :)

[pthalo]

Ebben a mondatban nincs ige. (In this sentence no verb. perfectly grammatical in Hungarian.)

[pne.livejournal.com]

Hm... isn't "nincs" a verb, though? The negative counterpart to "van", if my memory serves me correctly?

[pthalo]

I guess so. I'm not really sure what nincs is. Some sort of negation. It might be a verb. Van is a real verb and gets conjugated and has tenses and stuff. Nincs is just there. no conjugating it. In the past tense "nem volt" not there was.

I am a student: (én) diák vagyok. I am not a student: (én) nem vagyok diák.
You are a student: (te) diák vagy. You aren't a student: (én) nem vagy diák.
He is a student: ő diák. no verb. He isn't a student: ő nem diák. still no verb.

This sentence has a verb: Ennek a mondatnak van igéje. or Ebben a mondatban van ige.

Okay, I agree but I think it's because it has to do with the sentence having a verb. If iges (verb-y, verb-containing) were a word (and it'd be an adjective) then there could be such a sentence without a verb. (E-mondat nem iges. for example. or maybe e mondat nem iges. don't remember if it's hyphenated or seperate. Leaning towards seperate.)

Got one! E mondat nem ige igénylő. This sentence not verb requiring. Where requiring isn't a verb but an adjective.

[pne.livejournal.com]

Ah, okay. Sort of like the Russian where there is no copula in the present, either -- "I sick" for "I am sick", and the like.

[pthalo]

only for present tense 3rd person (singular and plural). otherwise, copula. :)

More Russian

[pne.livejournal.com]

Interestingly, while "to be" isn't usually expressed in the present tense in Russian, it is when talking about existence (and possession, which is expressed as "at [possessor] there exists [thing possessed]", e.g. у меня есть книга "at me there is a book" for "I have a book".

But in the negative, AFAIK the verb is left out and you only have the negator -- у меня нет книги "at me not book" for "I have no book" (with book in the genitive since it's a negative construction -- I think this is called a "privative genitive").

I also remember a sign in a shop-window in a photograph in a history book we used at school, saying хлеба нет "bread-gen. not" = "There is no bread/We have no bread".

Which looks similarly, structurally, to your sentence with "nincs".

...

I just asked a Russian co-worker, and she agreed. Though the sentence would be more likely in the plural: у меня нет книги "at me not books-gen.", I have no books.

And the original sentence that we started out with would also not contain a verb: в этом предложении нет глагола "in this sentence not verb".

[pne.livejournal.com]

It might be a verb. Van is a real verb and gets conjugated and has tenses and stuff. Nincs is just there. no conjugating it. In the past tense "nem volt" not there was.

Ah, thanks. I was going to ask about that -- whether it had a past tense, for example.

[pthalo]

For a while, I used to say "nincs alma van" for "there are no apples." This sentence makes no sense to Hungarian because it reads as: there aren't apples there are. For me, it made perfect sense and always meant "there are no apples". I think this comes from English with "isn't" and I was reading it as: no apples are. but I wouldn't say van nincs alma, a more literal translation of there are no apples. or van nem alma. Always nincs alma van. And it didn't help that I knew it was wrong and knew that I always made this mistake, whenever I Talked fast I would say nincs ... van.

But I outgrew it, thankfully. :)

[pne.livejournal.com]

I used to say "nincs alma van" for "there are no apples."

alma = apple?

Reminds me of Turkish "elma" (one of the few words that [appear to?] violate vowel harmony). A borrowing from Turkish into Hungarian, or from Hungarian into Turkish? Or a common source that both languages borrowed from? Or coincidence?

I wouldn't say van nincs alma, a more literal translation of there are no apples. or van nem alma. Always nincs alma van.

Interesting.

To me, the "obvious" translation would be nem van alma, with nem in front of the verb... isn't that how it's used with other verbs, e.g. "I don't see him" or "I don't love you" or "he didn't know"? You mentioned nem volt earlier.

What's the future of nincs? Also nem + future of van?

[pthalo]

yep. "nem lesz" there will not be.

alma = apple. and Turks occupied hungarian for 150 years and even before that the Hungarians passed through Turkish and Persian territory a little bit to get to the carpathian basin and there was mixing along this way. I don't know whether it was put into hungarian from turkish or into turkish from hungarian though.

for my english mind at the time, nem was like no and nincs was like not and this is probably okay in a few places with translation but it's shaky and the boundary between the two is going to be different, just like in all places you'll try to have a 1:1 translation for things.

another example, *goes off on a tangent* are the words glass and cup, pohár and csész respectively. The dictionary might fool you into thinking this is a 1:1 translation but it isn't really.

The big difference between a glass and a cup in English is whether it's transparent or not. A glass can be made of transparent plastic and still be a glass. In Hungarian, a pohár is taller than it is wide and a cup is about as wide as it is tall or a little wider. So in English you say "papercup" because a paper cup isn't transparent. and in Hungarian you say papírpohár (paper glass) because it is taller than it is wide.

[pne.livejournal.com]

Oh, and what's correct? Nincs alma or Alma nincs?

[pthalo]

They're both fine, I think it's just a matter of emphasis. I think Nincs alma is the more neutral one and alma nincs is more "there isn't apples (but there might be grapes)" but it's a slight difference